Judge This!!!
An English High Court Judge, Mr Justice Collins, has delivered a broadside to the US run Gitmo. The whole article is worth a read, but this quote is especially interesting:
"America's idea of what is torture is not the same as ours and does not appear to coincide with that of most civilised nations."
It is becoming somewhat of an English habit to proclaim their superior handling of "l'affaire Iraqe" along the lines of "Isn't Abu Ghraib frightful, those Yanks just don't have what it takes to be a benign imperial power" or "English soldiers are much more civilised than the yobbo Americans.
Frankly, this is just not true as video tapes of English soliders beating up Iraqis show. The situation in Basra, once advertised as the model of UK-Iraqi collaboration has gone backwards; the English government is implicated in 'rendition' and recent memos have made it clear that Bliar promised Bush that he would do anything he wanted re Iraq.
And yet, and yet... the English legal system has consistently thrown up strong resistance to government's attempts to evade the law. Having been a litigator for a number of years in England, I appreciate the independence and verve of the English judiciary, especially at the Court of First Instance level. These are people who (for the most part) were formerly barristers, which means they essentially lived their working lives independent of any need for a 'firm' or 'office' structure (and much less, the need to please a particular brand of client) and who are highly intelligent and knowledgeable. Almost all of them have got some slight eccentricity which makes them compelling characters.
I am sure my American friends will point me to US judges of the same quality and calibre. Unfortunately, not many of them are members of the Supremes..
"America's idea of what is torture is not the same as ours and does not appear to coincide with that of most civilised nations."
It is becoming somewhat of an English habit to proclaim their superior handling of "l'affaire Iraqe" along the lines of "Isn't Abu Ghraib frightful, those Yanks just don't have what it takes to be a benign imperial power" or "English soldiers are much more civilised than the yobbo Americans.
Frankly, this is just not true as video tapes of English soliders beating up Iraqis show. The situation in Basra, once advertised as the model of UK-Iraqi collaboration has gone backwards; the English government is implicated in 'rendition' and recent memos have made it clear that Bliar promised Bush that he would do anything he wanted re Iraq.
And yet, and yet... the English legal system has consistently thrown up strong resistance to government's attempts to evade the law. Having been a litigator for a number of years in England, I appreciate the independence and verve of the English judiciary, especially at the Court of First Instance level. These are people who (for the most part) were formerly barristers, which means they essentially lived their working lives independent of any need for a 'firm' or 'office' structure (and much less, the need to please a particular brand of client) and who are highly intelligent and knowledgeable. Almost all of them have got some slight eccentricity which makes them compelling characters.
I am sure my American friends will point me to US judges of the same quality and calibre. Unfortunately, not many of them are members of the Supremes..
posted by Akash at 1:02 PM
5 Comments:
the judge makes an accurate point - the UK adopts an interpretation of what constitutes torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment that falls in to line with international customary law and CAT - it doesn't mean that it is adhered to all the time ( as the recent photos suggest). The US, on the other hand, have for the last 4 years undermined both international treaty law and international standards of acceptable behaviour towards prisoners in not only practice (most recent indictment comes from the UN Human Rights Office and Annan himself on Guantanamo)but also policy, written policy. Yes, the UK joined in the inavsion, yes Toni Blair is lying piece of shit and is completely morally bankrupt, yes the UK forces have tortured people in Iraq and no doubt Afghanistan but there is absolutley no comparison with the excesses (or shall i say standard practices) of the US forces in Iraq and Afganistan (and think about what is not covered or reported). Falluja did not involve the Brits, Abu Gharib did not involve the Brits etc etc. I agree we should not be so smug, the torture of one person is excessive behaviour - but in essence the Judge, the UK media are right when they play down any comparisons between the behaviour of the US and UK forces. Ok, I'm going to take my bulldog out of my mini!
In response to Manu, much as i don't agree with the invasion, i think it's a bit strong to call Blair morally bankrupt. I think misrepresening shows a lack of respect, and i think misguided is more apt.
There will be occasions when there is a morality to war, admiteedly not many. I just found the whole exercise a massive own goal, set against pretty marginal gains.
anyway Bob, i read that article in the paper coincidentally, and that very phrase stood out to me aswell.
Shouldn't we move on from all this. Or maybe i'm hiding from this alll now, partly for anger management reasons.
Ho and indeed hum.
Sandeep...... How can we move on. We have to keep talking about it otherwise nothing will change. The human race never seems to learn.....never. Once we stop talking about it the same thing will happen again somewhere down the line.
Don't forget 1 million people walked the streets of London protesting against this terrorist attack on another nation state and I am sure there were millions more who did not attend but who felt the same way. I do not remember 1 million people showing there support for this war in this way! And yet Blair.....if i remember rightly, virtually brushed it aside by saying he did not disagree with their right to protest and show how they feel about this.....but " I just happen to think that they are wrong " WHAT ?? All those people are just wrong. Not that they happen to have a positive life saving point of view. Wanting to try and sort this out peacefully ??? A man in this day and age should be judged by his actions and I sincerely hope that Blair is only remembered for this and that he should live the rest of his days in the knowledge that this could have had a different outcome instead of the death of so many innocents. I think the fact that I have been working in TV news for 17 years now allows me a certain degree of qualification. I get to see the real shit which should be made compulsory viewing on TV channels at a late night slot. I guarantee you there would not be so many wars or the will to go to war. We live so detached from reality these days that the value of 1 life just does not have any meaning. I want to go on to this torture subject but I feel that I am ranting so I will stop :))
I hope you are all really well
Peace and Love
Sandy
Sandeep, i am sorry, but you are wrong - Blair is indeed morally bankrupt - everything is out now - he knew about plans for an invasion, he certainly oversaw the doctoring of the dogdy dossier, he knew there weren't weapons of mass destruction - he knew he knew he knew - and then he lied he lied he lied - he was not misguided - no one really believes this. I mean Iraq with the no fly zone and sanctions, it was the most spied on place in the world - dont tell me the intelligence was flawed! And yes, the US and UK will say that the French and the Germans had the same intellgence - yes they did and that's why they said military action was premature and unwarranted at that time. So, Blair is an ass - if he had come and said straight out that we need to support our allies absent the moral and legal diatribe about UN SCs and WMDs then maybe , just maybe he would have fostered more respect - but in reality he is morally bankrupt. As for own goal - that depends on what the goal origially was - it certainly was not to secure a democracy in Iraq or spread freedom bla blah- but rather to establish a huge presence in the middle east, to control the oil and posture v other middle east rrgimes - the US have done thus wonderfully (the 2100 us dead and 100,000 civilioans killed ar a price worh paying). I read recently that the US has influence/effective control in all the significant departments of the Iraqi government - the defence, the oil ministry, foreign, the list goes on. Check out the recent promulgations of the US Defence department where they want to secure the legal right to interfere all over the world - very scary indeed!
Yes, yes, he's was doubtless pretty dumb. Morallyu bankrupt misses the point though.
You assume that going to war in Iraq or pre-emptive action in the middle east had a 0% chance of success. Iraq will probably be a better place, not definitely, but probably, in 5 to 10 years time. Hey it may descend into chaos for years yes, but it may be a better place. If that happens, you will not be able t say that the war was fruitless. Blair and Bush will rightly take some credit for that.
Yes yes, there are a host of other dodgy motivations, US interests etc, and bringign democracy is only a small part of a complex picture. But on the point of bringing democracy, i would stop short of calling these people morally bankrupt. after all there was a humanitarian case for intervention (and yes, there are and were plenty of moire pressing cases). Isn;t there a moral shortfall in denying democracy??
That said i remain staunchly against the war,. It was always going to cause more problems than it solved in the near term, and it remains a pretty dumb own goal, particulalry given it;s proximity to 9/11.
And on the point of 1 million people marching, hey, i was one of them!! I don;t take offence at Blair telling me i'm wrong. As someone in the West Wing once said of government 'hey, we don't do this by asking for a show of hands'....if 5m had marched then yes, maybe the point would have been much more forcefully made, but that was never going to happen.
Anyway, leave me alone, i'm 'trying' to move on....
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