World War III
We've been rocked by thunderstorms the past day or two with the windows in my office at one point dangerously close to blowing in. Still, it's nothing compared to the Lebanese and the Israelis. I know that we're all supposed to be objective and even handed but statistics never lie - at least 10 times more civilians killed in Lebanon than in Israel. The question occurs to me: does anyone in power anywhere have any sense? My department at work is 'dispute resolution' and I don't think any of the so-called world leaders would even manage a job as office junior.
Actually, I think that not crediting Bush, Blair, Olmert and Nasrallah with any sense is really underestimating them - they know exactly what they are doing. CNN reported that Hizbollah has rockets from Iran and Syria which have a range of 60 km. What on earth is Israel doing bombing Beirut which is clearly more than 60km from the border? CNN have also reported that Hizbollah "are using tactics and weapons to their advantage" - as if it is unfair that they are not just lying down and dying.
Of course it stupid of Hizbollah to kidnap Israeli soldiers. But, there are stories - unconfirmed I guess - that the soldiers were in fact in Lebanon and were not taken from Israel. Whatever the story is, the attacking of military targets has to be distinguished from the killing of innocent civilians. There comes a point where, even if one agress that Lebanese civilians are not being targetted deliberately, the killing of civilians by accident is no excuse or justification.
Israel says Hizbollah is firing its rockets from civilian areas but has anyone actually put forward any evidence of this? I have seen pictures of dead children but no mangled rocket launchers and you would have thought that if there were documentary evidence to support this claim, we would have seen those pictures plastered over the tv and newspapers.
the other thing that occurred to me watching and reading the news is that the ceasefire planned (ha!) only asks Israel to stop "offensive operations". This is contrasted with acts of self-defence which Israel is still allowed to pursue. Given that Israel, the US and Blair have always characterised the Israeli response as 'self-defense' does this mean that the ceasefire will have little effect?
What is the endgame here? To get Iran and Syria involved? To rid of the world of muslims? of jews? can anyone help?
Actually, I think that not crediting Bush, Blair, Olmert and Nasrallah with any sense is really underestimating them - they know exactly what they are doing. CNN reported that Hizbollah has rockets from Iran and Syria which have a range of 60 km. What on earth is Israel doing bombing Beirut which is clearly more than 60km from the border? CNN have also reported that Hizbollah "are using tactics and weapons to their advantage" - as if it is unfair that they are not just lying down and dying.
Of course it stupid of Hizbollah to kidnap Israeli soldiers. But, there are stories - unconfirmed I guess - that the soldiers were in fact in Lebanon and were not taken from Israel. Whatever the story is, the attacking of military targets has to be distinguished from the killing of innocent civilians. There comes a point where, even if one agress that Lebanese civilians are not being targetted deliberately, the killing of civilians by accident is no excuse or justification.
Israel says Hizbollah is firing its rockets from civilian areas but has anyone actually put forward any evidence of this? I have seen pictures of dead children but no mangled rocket launchers and you would have thought that if there were documentary evidence to support this claim, we would have seen those pictures plastered over the tv and newspapers.
the other thing that occurred to me watching and reading the news is that the ceasefire planned (ha!) only asks Israel to stop "offensive operations". This is contrasted with acts of self-defence which Israel is still allowed to pursue. Given that Israel, the US and Blair have always characterised the Israeli response as 'self-defense' does this mean that the ceasefire will have little effect?
What is the endgame here? To get Iran and Syria involved? To rid of the world of muslims? of jews? can anyone help?
posted by Akash at 7:59 PM
22 Comments:
The two sides seem too fully committed, rendering any diplomacy or dispute resolution to take place.
There is no dispute between Israel and Lebanon per se, more that this is a proxy war between America/Israel and Iran i believe.
Who knows the facts on the ground accurately? No-one really, and i'm not sure it matters. Yes one can genuinely question the Israelis sense of proportionality, but moreover it tells you that Israel were probabl looking for any pretext to do this.
It reeks of not Olmert, but the military calling the shots, as they are probably missing not having a military man in charge.
Of one thing we can be sure..this will achieve nothing, and we will all end up where we started....
Sorry Bobby, haven't read your blog for some time now, but have to say this was the most biased blog of yours I have read.
I have spent some time in Lebanon; you will be surprised how hated Hezbollah are there. They are nothing but extreme parasitic cowards who use Lebanon because of its proximity to Israel, and have no regard for its civilains, or indeed peace in the Middle East. They are not only hated because of their cowardly tactics of using civilians as shields, but also, might I add, their connections with Syria and Iran. Don't forget that Syria were an occupying force in Lebanon until recently, and left a legacy of supression and heavy handedness.
I have known Lebanese who have been scarred by the 15 year civil war; let me tell you that these scars will never heal. War is not a game; it destroys individuals and individuality. It consumes the soul, and shreds human dignity. Something that you or I will, hopefully, never understand.
Israel is a victim, just as Lebanon. The most tragic thing is that war has surfaced again, not because of either, but because of Hezbollah, because of the Syrian and Iranian ruling parties who supply weapons to extremists so that there may never be peace in the Middle East. The sooner these monstrous "governments" are overthrown the better.
My brother was born in Iran in 1959; my parents speak of a land of modern thinking, innovation and rewarded talent (Shadi will agree with me). Something that has been eroded by Khomeini and, now, by Ahmadenijad. Tragic.
Rick,
I don't think the piece is biased -I know Hizbollah is not a particularly nice organisation and that Iran and Syria undoubtedly are and have been flexing their muscles in the Middle East for some sort of geopolitical reason. I just object to the lazy journalism of CNN and other tv news stations which repeat ad infinitum certain 'facts' without seemingly any evidence or checking. For example, the allegation that Hizbollah fire from civilian areas - now I know that that is 'well established' but I, personally, have not seen any evidence of this. The lebanese government now seems to have gotten behind Hizbollah and you don't hear any lebanese civilians saying 'those bloody Hizbollah using our civilians'. Personally, my thoughts are more with the lebanese civilians and the israeli civilians who are getting mixed up in the way between IDF and Hizbollah. And I think that, notwithstanding that Israel certainly has a right to defend itself and should not put up with acts of aggression, the reaction of Israel has been appalling. Your comment doesn't answer why on earth Israel are bombing Beirut - the other day there were bombs in a Christian area of South Beirut which was not exactly an area of Hizbollah support.
Bobby, the reason you do not hear Lebanese civilians saying "...bloody Hezbollah..." is because that they are afraid, afraid of speaking out, afraid of being identified, afraid for their family, for their loved ones. Even when you get to know these people, they are afraid of taking you into their confidence...even when you're friends! It is naive to think that people should behave normally or rationally when they live in fear, and in some cases terror, every moment of their life.
The reason why Israel is bombing south Beirut is because that is a Hezbollah stronghold. They want to eliminate their command posts and communication lines. It is again naive to think that communications and intelligence should be perfect during a war, that is why you have situations as Christian areas or a UN post being bombed. There is communication breakdown all the time in our organisation, I'm sure yours as well...and we are not even at war!
I am also absolutely appalled at civilian deaths, especially as I have stayed in Junieh, an area in Beirut that has been bombed, and there are probably casualties among people I have met. But I also sympathise with Israel who cannot even peacefully hold on to a 150 mile stretch of the Meditteranean castline without people wanting to obliterate you from the face of the earth.
This situation is complex and cannot be trivialised as you've attempted.
Rick,
I'm sorry but I can't let the last statement pass - I don't think I've trivialised anything - if you look at the main post, I was casting aspersions on bush,blair,olmert and nasrallah. I am not surprised that many lebanese hate hizbollah, but it strikes me that they also don't appreciate their infrastructure and lives being bombed to smithereens by Israel for something which the lebanese can't control. Israel tried to destroy Hizbollah for 18 years without success so it's a bit rich to turn around and blame the lebanese government for not doing the same in the past 6 years, especially when the syrians only withdrew within the past year or so. Hizbollah started as a resistance movement to Israeli occupation in 1982 with assistance from Iran to be sure. What it has transferred to is anybody's guess right now but it seems to still be some mix of resistance, aggression and more social services. I certainly don't agree with their wider aims and the anti-semitism; nor do I agree with the kidnapping of soldiers. However, the historical fact is that there have been numerous violations of the border since 2000 by both sides - see the Unifil website for further information. Israel can't really claim to claim to have completely withdrawn from Lebanon given that they have conducted numerous sonic boom flights across South Lebanon over the past 6 years. Similarly, Hizbollah are no angels either firing rockets over the border numerous times as well. The fact that this has occurred without full scale war or invasion numerous times previously lends credence to the theory that Israel were simply waiting for a justifiable premise to destroy Hizbollah. Unfortunately for the many innocent civilians in Lebanon, this has turned into the destruction of Lebanon itself. Can this be excused? Personally I don't think so.
My comment on the draft wording of the resolution was done from a lawyers point of view with a critical objective eye. In fact, the same interpretation - that Israel is only prohibited from using offensive fire doesn't prohibit them from much given the characterisation of what they are doing as self-defence - has been commented on a number of times in the press and is one of the reasons why the Arab League protested the draft at the UN yesterday.
What seems to be being done is the equivalent of you destroying your neighbour's house in return for some uncontrollable kids throwing stones across the fence into your garden. Hardly a proportionate response.
What's worse is that the response appears to most sensible people to be simply stregthening and emboldening HIzbollah. The voices that say this is a strategic mistake I think fail to ask the obvious question - if this is so clear to most of the world, isn't it also clear to the Israelis and Hizbollah - that is what I meant by saying that they all know precisely what they are doing. It's a crying shame and absolutely disgusting, in my view, that this is being done at the expense of Lebanon and the Lebanese people and at the expense of the Israelis as well.
Bobby is totally correct in everything he says - except the comment that Hezbullah is anti-semitic - this is a dangerous characterisation and must be qualified- i suspect that they do want to see the zionist regime obliterated which is not necessarily the same as being anti- semitic. In any event, there is really no doubt that Israel's response has been wholly disporportionate and in fact it appears that the IDF have deliberately targeted civlians. I am currently working on prosecution of a Serb military commander for the shelling and sniping of civilians during the siege of Sarajevo in the 1990s and so I know a thing or two about conduct of hostlilities and violations of the laws and customs of war. Israel has and continues to commit war crimes on a scale and audacity far greater, in my view, than the Bosnian Serb military in Sarajevo. If you look at the latest leaflets dropped by the State of Israel warning civlians to evacuate (leaving aside then when they manage to find the money for a cab or find transport they are neverthless shelled by the IDF while fleeing)and and that any who remain are essentially legitimate targets - this is direct threat to commit war crimes and deliberately shellm civilians -i mean if had this type of evidence in my case it would be a smoking gun. And the Israeli authorities persist in their line - well we warned civilians to leave and so if they are shelled and killed it is not our fault - so does that mean that when Hezbulah warned Israel that it would fire rockets into Haifa anyone who remains is a legitimate target - of course not (and for sure there are Israeli military installations to be targeted). Israel has no moral authority whatsoever, they have been heavy handed with their neighbours and the Palestinians ever since the country was created and so one must not be surprised iby their total disregard for the laws and customs of war.
By the way, Rick, your comment about the UN post being bombed due to lack of intelligence illustrates your blatant disregard of the facts - This UN post has been there for almost 18 years: the IDF knew about its location. On the day four UN staff were killed, the UN repeatedly told the IDF that they were being shelled - for some 10 hours - and then they were killed.This was no accident.
And Rick, one thing is for sure that it is NOT the case that superpower military machines like Israel, US and even India,have communication breakdowns as we experienced in every day work , as you seem to suggest - this is preposterous.
By the way, Hezbulla have 12 mps in the lebanon parliament; and if you want to get an ideas as to how Hezbullah is seen now - read the ex-Arab leage ambassador to the UK's article in the Independent - very insightful.
Guys, an interesting debate, and certainly you all demonstrate some detailed knowledge of specific areas.
Manoj, yes the israelis have consistently been heavy handed with their neighbours. They have spent much of their time however surrounded by those who refuse to accept their right to exist, and have at times been aggressive. I agree that being so heavy handed has not ultimately served them well, but bear in mind there is some context here.
Rick, i too don't believe that every case of friendly fire type incidents like the UN post are accidental. Some probably are, but not this one, nor the missiles into the Baghdad press hotel in 2003. Communication breaks down in big organisations like those that we work for, but for reasons that dont apply to military structures.
Bob, i have much sympathy with your sentiments, although there is a clear bias in some of what you say. Whilst i may be onside, the logical conclusion of this great debate leads one to question the eixstence of Isreal as a jewish state, and that is not somethign we should entertain.
Sandy, in no way is the logical conclusion of what I have been saying to deny the right of Israel to exist. The logical conclusion is that the Israeli government should change its policies and try a new policy of engagement. How this translates into a threat to Israel's existence is beyond me.
Regarding the issue of bias I will address that in a separate post but will just say here that we all have our points of view which are, hopefully, based upon reading material. Unless you are a complete fence sitter, you will come down inclined more on one side than another. That does not indicate bias, in the sense of being inclined towards a point of view out of an irrational prejudice. That merely indicates that you have thought about the issue and come to an opinion. Notwithstanding that I have some natural sympathy for the lebanese being the underdogs and the people stuck in the middle, I think the Israeli civilians are also caught in the middle.
By the way, Hizbollah is supposed to be some rabid fundie group and Israel the modern enlightended democracy - shouldn't we accept more from our democracies? I note that today, Hizbollah have indicated that they would abide by the ceasefire; but no mention of any such thing by Israel. Make of that what you will.
Sandy, in no way is the logical conclusion of what I have been saying to deny the right of Israel to exist. The logical conclusion is that the Israeli government should change its policies and try a new policy of engagement. How this translates into a threat to Israel's existence is beyond me.
Regarding the issue of bias I will address that in a separate post but will just say here that we all have our points of view which are, hopefully, based upon reading material. Unless you are a complete fence sitter, you will come down inclined more on one side than another. That does not indicate bias, in the sense of being inclined towards a point of view out of an irrational prejudice. That merely indicates that you have thought about the issue and come to an opinion. Notwithstanding that I have some natural sympathy for the lebanese being the underdogs and the people stuck in the middle, I think the Israeli civilians are also caught in the middle.
By the way, Hizbollah is supposed to be some rabid fundie group and Israel the modern enlightended democracy - shouldn't we accept more from our democracies? I note that today, Hizbollah have indicated that they would abide by the ceasefire; but no mention of any such thing by Israel. Make of that what you will.g by Israel. Make of that what you will.
I understand of course. I was not neccessrily saying you were denying the right to exist, more that this debate in general goes back to that starting point, which is not helpful..
I agree wit the general impulse towarsd engagement, however difficult that would be. My impression is that its by no means too late for this, as however anti-semtic and well supported Hamas are, i believe most of Israles neighbours would taek a peaceful coexistence over constant violence. Of course the ruling elites in some of Israles nieghbours talk an aggressive rhetoric, they are in some case oppressive regimes, and dont really repesent young maninsteram opinion. This is perhaps the moral aspect of the regime change rhetoric, however impractical and niaive that is.
read this:
'Respecting Lebanon's Sovereignty'
Date posted: August 01, 2006
By Ran HaCohen Send Article
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Nothing compares to Israel's open, independent, and pluralistic media in times of war. Saturday we had the pleasure of watching Anti-Defamation League national director Abraham Foxman give an especially repulsive horror show on Israeli public television (Channel 1). Foxman was invited to the studio to comment on Kofi Annan's announcement that four UN observers had been apparently killed by Israel deliberately. From the odd choice of "expert" for this subject to the style and content, the "interview" ñ in a prestigious foreign news weekly magazine ñ looked like propaganda from the darkest regimes. Moderator Yaakov Achimeir stated time and again as a matter of fact that the observers had been killed "by accident," so that the only realm left to investigate was Annan's personal psychopathology for suggesting otherwise.
Foxman cooperated enthusiastically. Annan had gained a lot of respect for his successful efforts to globally commemorate the Holocaust. In a dirty trick of demagoguery, Foxman explained these efforts away by saying the UN secretary-general (or "the secretary of state," as Foxman repeatedly misnamed him) liked only dead Jews, not living ones. Foxman also accused Annan of having "guilty feelings because of the Holocaust"; one could actually gain the impression that Hitler's extermination units had consisted predominantly of black Ghanaian children like Annan was at the time.
"Can anyone imagine," the infuriated demagogue rhetorically asked, "that the Jewish people would intentionally kill UN observers?!" Yes: Foxman actually used the term "the Jewish people" as the agent of the killing, following the footsteps of traditional anti-Semitism and its notorious blood libels, in which the entire "Jewish people" was blamed for whatever individual Jews had or had not done.
At this lunatic stage, the moderator tried, not once but twice, to add even more fuel to the fire by "suggesting" that the UN wanted to see Israel wiped off the map. Alas, Foxman wasn't ready to go that far, and just reminded viewers that the UN had given Israel its "birth certificate," but had been in a "love-hate relationship" with the Jewish state ever since ñ again, because the Gentiles love us only when we are dead and buried, not when strong and "defending ourselves."
Prior to the interview, moderator Achimeir described Foxman as a friend of Annan's, and wondered whether the two would ever speak to each other again after the interview. I for my part would warmly advise Annan to keep away from a "friend" like Foxman, as long as the latter's mental condition has not been professionally diagnosed as non-contagious.
What the Observers Observed
The four UN observers killed by Israel last week had called the Israeli liaison officer 10 times urging him to stop bombing them. The Israeli army promised it would stop. It did stop, but only after the observers were killed. The following chronicle, copied from official reports of the UN Interim Force in Lebanon, is dedicated ñ among the dead ñ to the four unarmed UN observers, from China, Finland, Austria, and Canada, who were just carrying out their peaceful mission. Among the living, the chronicle is dedicated to all those who keep saying that Israel has respected Lebanon's sovereignty since 2000, when it ended its 22-year-long occupation; and to those who find the Hezbollah's breach of Israel's sovereignty an excuse good enough to devastate an entire prosperous land.
The UN Chronicle (Excerpts)
Interim report of the secretary-general on the UN Interim Force in Lebanon, April 30, 2001:
"Since the resolution was adopted [i.e., since Israel's withdrawal], the situation has remained essentially unchanged, although there were further developments in the dispute over Shab'a farms area. As before, there were frequent minor ground violations of the Blue Line. There were, in addition, almost daily violations of the line by Israeli aircraft which penetrated deeply into Lebanese airspace. I have been in touch with the parties concerned and other interested parties to urge respect for the Blue Line and to avert further escalation."
Report of the secretary-general for the period from July 18, 2000, to Jan. 18, 2001:
"Israeli violations of Lebanese air space, which had resumed after Hizbollah's attack on 7th October, continued on an almost daily basis."
For the period from Jan. 23, 2001, to July 20, 2001:
"As reported in April, Israeli aircraft violated the line on an almost daily basis, penetrating deep into Lebanese airspace. These incursions, particularly those at low level breaking the sound barrier over populated areas, were especially provocative and caused great anxiety to the civilian population. The air violations are ongoing, despite repeated dÈmarches to the Israeli authorities."
For the period from July 21, 2001, to Jan. 16, 2002:
"Israeli air violations of the Blue Line, however, continued on an almost daily basis, penetrating deep into Lebanese airspace. These incursions are not justified and cause great concerns to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas. The air violations are ongoing, although dÈmarches to the Israeli authorities [Ö] have been made repeatedly by me, other senior United Nations officials and a number of interested Governments."
For the period from Jan. 17, 2002, to July 12, 2002:
"Unjustified Israeli air incursions into sovereign Lebanese airspace continued on an almost daily basis throughout most of the reporting period, often penetrating deep into Lebanon and frequently generating sonic booms. In the latter half of April, a pattern emerged whereby the aircraft would fly out to sea and enter Lebanese airspace north of the UNIFIL area of operation, thus avoiding direct observation and verification by UNIFIL. In January Hezbollah began responding to the overflights with anti-aircraft fire. This activity has continued through the present. On a number of occasions [Ö] shells crossed the Blue Line. Calls on Israel to cease the overflights [Ö]" For the period from July 13, 2002, to Jan. 14, 2003:
"There were sporadic Israeli violations of Lebanese airspace, with periodic lulls in such activity punctuated by abrupt increases over periods of several days. On two occasions in November, Israeli overflights exceeded any recorded number since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000. Many of these air violations penetrated deep into Lebanon, often generating sonic booms over populated areas. The pattern identified in my last report continued, whereby the aircraft would fly out to sea and enter Lebanese airspace north of the UNIFIL area of operation, thus avoiding direct observation and verification by UNIFIL."
For the period from Jan. 15, 2003, to July 23, 2003:
"The most significant sources of tension were the persistent Israeli violations of Lebanese airspace and instances of Hezbollah antiaircraft fire directed across the Blue Line towards Israeli villages. [Ö] Israeli air incursions into Lebanon increased overall during the reporting period, though the numbers have declined since early July. UNIFIL recorded almost daily violations across the Blue Line in some weeks. As in the past, Israeli overflights penetrated deep into Lebanon, often generating sonic booms over populated areas."
For the period from July 24, 2003, to Jan. 19, 2004:
"The recurrent Israeli air incursions into Lebanon continued. The numbers abated at times but periods of little or no activity were invariably followed by an intensification of the flights. [Ö] Hezbollah continued to react [Ö]" For the period from Jan. 21, 2004, to July 21, 2004:
"A cycle of disruptions and armed exchanges across the Blue Line commenced on 5 May. Israel carried out more than 20 air sorties over Lebanon, a number of which generated sonic booms. Hezbollah subsequently fired several antiaircraft rounds [Ö]" "Israeli air incursions were on the whole less frequent than in the previous period, although they were notable for their intensity and the large number of aircraft involved. Israeli officials maintained that there would be overflights whenever Israel deemed them necessary. As in the past, Israeli aircraft often penetrated deep [Ö] sonic booms over populated areas [Ö] fly out to the sea [Ö] avoiding direct observation [Ö]" For the period from July 21, 2004, to Jan. 20, 2005:
"Israeli air incursions into Lebanon continued throughout the reporting period. [Ö] Israeli officials maintained the position that there would be overflights whenever they deemed them necessary. [Ö] As in the past [Ö]" For the period from Jan. 21, 2005, to July 20, 2005:
"Violations of the Blue Line continued throughout the past six months, most often in the form of recurring air violations by Israeli jets, helicopters and drones as well as ground violations, from the Lebanese side, primarily by Lebanese shepherds. [Ö] The Israeli Air Force continued their air incursion [Ö] deep into Lebanon [Ö] sonic booms [Ö] whenever Israel deemed [Ö]" For the period from July 22, 2005, to Jan. 20, 2006:
"The Israeli Air Force violated Lebanese airspace on many occasions during the reporting period, disturbing the relative calm along the Blue Line. [Ö] [I]n November, overflights by jets, helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles or drones were numerous and particularly intrusive and provocative. [Ö] There were no instances of Hezbollah antiaircraft fire across the Blue Line [Ö]."
For the period from Jan. 21, 2006, to July 18, 2006:
"Persistent and provocative Israeli air incursions [Ö] remained a matter of serious concern. [Ö] A reduction in the number of air incursions in April contributed to an atmosphere of relative calm along the Blue Line, but this trend was reversed in May."
What the Observers Won't Observe Anymore
Since Israel withdrew from Lebanon six years ago, then, it hasn't given its northern neighbor even a single day of quiet. The more the UN reports repeat themselves, the less attention the media pays them. And just as Israelis wonder about the purpose of Hezbollah's missile arsenal, so could Lebanon, and so should we all, wonder what was the purpose of the thousands of Israeli overflights and sonic booms in Lebanon's sky: was it to gather some information not available to Israel's satellites anyway, or, much more likely, just to terrorize Lebanon's population by showing them that we violate their sovereignty "whenever we deem it necessary"?
And as for the killing of the observers, we can only speculate what it was that Israel didn't want them to observe anymore. Cluster munitions? Other crimes? We might never know.
Source: Letter From Israel/Antiwar.com, 31 July. 2006
It was only with an observation of bias that I started my comments, but now it is obvious that my comments, although may be directed to the blog writer, could apply to manoj as well.
The excerpts you have posted have not addressed the root of the problem...why is an armed Hezbollah in southern Lebanon?
Hezbollah IS a terrorist organisation, and has proven to have strong logistic links with Hamas, and moral support from Lakshe-a-Taiba and Al-Qaeeda.
For the less well-informed, these latter organisations have been linked by Pakistan, not by a western governments who you disregard as conspiracists anyway, to attempts of blowing up mid-atlantic planes. If that is just hearsay, these organisations have been PROVED to be linked to Sep 11, Bali, Madrid, London July 7 (Al Qaeeda) and assassination attempts on Musharraf, hijacking of Indian Airlines, bombing of New Delhi Parliamnent, 1993 Bombay bombings, last Octobers New Delhi Diwali bombs, and last months Bombay's train bombs (Lakshe-a-Taiba).
Oh my, what a pretty set of friends! And you blame Israel of incursions to spy on these Hezbollah murderers, who only want the total destruction of Israel as a state.
Yes, I can clearly see your viewpoint now.
Well let peace reign in this blog.....bobby, i suspect from your earlier comments that you think i am fence sitting, and i understand where you are coming from....
...its just that i'm a little tired of the default position of blaming teh US, blaming Israel for everything...they are and should be damned for many thibgs, it's just that i think we should take some account of the hyprocrisy of western liberals, ready to damn the US and Israel, but relatively quiet when it comes to damning the islamic fascists....
Now i still believe that western liberals have alot to offer the local debate, i just feel we should be wary of jumping too readily on the bandwagon of blaming our leaders....
the war on terror as fought was neverf going to work, and here we are five years later, and guess what, the stunning conclusion must be that we have gone nowhere, made no substantive progress, and nor are we likely to.....
Much more important is the last golf major of the year this weekend, the US PGA.......COME ON THE TIGER......11 down, 7 to go....
Again, for the sake of clarity, I do not think that having a point of view is a sign of bias; nor is it a sign of anti-semitism or wishing Israel not to exist. For crying out loud, we are all relatively sophisticated people - let's admit the distinction between criticism and prejudice. I criticise Tony Blair for some of his policies but this does not mean that I wish England not to exist, or that I think that all English men above 50 think the same (and wear blue ties). There, said it. I'm also not blaming US for the dispute but I think that it is fairly non-controversial to say that it was in the US's power to stop the violence (on both sides) much earlier than has proved to be the case - for that we can assign blame, no?
And Rick, you're factually incorrect. Whatever its tactics, Hizbollah is widely seen as a legitimate resistance movement throughout the arab world. Countries such as India, Brazil, South Africa, China, Russia and the EU do not consider it to be a terrorist organisation. It is also a Shia group which would be inherently inconsistent with any form of collaboration with Al-Queda, which is an extreme Sunni Wahabism, as I understand. One only has to look at the sectarian violence in Iraq to get an idea of the enmity between Sunnis and Shias. It is also pretty well known that Iran is pretty antithetic to Al-Queda, that there were spontaneous demonstrations in Tehran expressing solidarity with the US after 9/11 and that Iran has actually assisted the US with the capture of some Al-Queda operatives.
Again, we are surely sophisticated enough to draw a distinction between bombs in London, 9/11, the Mumbai bombings etc. and an armed movement which originated in the context of an occupation of one country by another?
well Bobby said it - Rick, you are spectacularly wrong - on what basis do you say that Hezbullah is a terrorist organisation? Is it because the US has deemed it so? What do you define as terrorism? On what basis do you say I am biased? The root of the problem is not the existence of an armed Hezbullah (which was a direct result of the invasion of a sovereign state by Israel in 1982) but the manner in which Israel was created and the way it continues to treat its neighbours and employ an apartheid-like regime where Palestinians have no rights and are treated like second class citizens. Israel is legally an occupier and along with that comes responsibilities under the geneva conventions towards the civilians -these responsibilities are continually being abused and violated by the state. Rick, come on seriously, lets not give Pakistan too much credit - the scope of human rights abuses committed against suspects the state picks up renders any information they elicit tenuous at best. As for Hamas, is it not an elected institution? on what basis do you say they are terrorists? Since you purport to being knowledgebale about Lebanon, what is your view about the Shabra and Shatila civlian deaths where an the Supreme Court of Israeli which found Aeriel Sharon responsible for the deaths of over 3000 civilians, mostly women and children. Was this justified?
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